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Sloveniaextreme phonetic autismBernd2023-08-09 21:36:24 · 3yNo. 282394reply
So, for those of you unaware, I've been working on a quasi-phonetic alphabet for a very very long time. The goals are:
1) use the entire original alphabet
2) use the extensions in a way that aligns with as many systems as possible
3) use letter case (because I'm trying to stick true to how latin alphabet works, even though this feature is something I personally don't like much)
4) use additions that are as distinct as possible
5) make the system as regular as possible
The points 3) and 4) make it impossible to go the way of IPA and use a shitload of smallcaps symbols and various typographic variants signifying different phonemes. According to point 2) I decided then to go with a regular system of recognisable diacritics. I've maximally simplified the distinction by place of articulation (to labial, coronal, dorsal, laryngeal, + sibilant & lateral specials). I still had to introduce plenty of additional letters, the full inventory stands at 48.
 
I'm now almost satisfied with the end result, but there is one thing that bothers me: the letter Qq. I have two solutions how to complete the system;
1) use Qq for the guttural R ("dorsal vibrant"), and ʔ for the glottal stop (standard usage in phonetics), with a mirrored hamza-like (ء) uppercase – kind of like an open Q (but this leaves the 2-like variant cursive Q incompatible) – not encoded in Unicode, it's possible to mock it up using open O and ogonek: Ɔ̨. Fairly elegant, but seeing q's to denote the guttural Rs in French and German looks too counterintuitive.
2) use a rho-based ♇ϱ for the guttural R. Originally (10 years ago) I had rho for the voiceless R based on how it was devoiced in original Greek when word-initial or doubled, but that turned out too irregular compared to the rest of the system. I guess using 'rh' for the guttural R is kinda intuitive too. It'd also be possible to use lowercase ɽ instead of ϱ, but I'm not sure, the hooked descender looks a bit weird & I lose the rationalization that the letter is a rho that way. Then Qq is used for the glottal stop, which is how Maltese uses it, and also some odd languages here and there (Võro, Shanghainese romanization, and I believe some languages in the Pacific too)
 
Thoughts? I'm not sure which one looks nicer; the rho is a bit too distinct shape-wise (doesn't look in line with the rest of letters) and ʔ for glottal stop is a very standard phonetic letter, I feel like I shouldn't discard it like that. Q ends up being used in a weird way either way, though it looks less counterintuitive for me in the glottal stop position than in the guttural R.
 
Complimentary are three renditions of Der Nordwind und die Sonne, a text typically used in phonetic demonstrations, in German translation, to showcase how guttural R's show (I hope I didn't make too many mistakes typing this out):
NetherlandsBernd2023-08-09 22:09:54 · 3yNo. 282402reply
Qq for dorsal R is more intuitive in my opinion. If you try to read Noqdvind with English/French reading of Q you get something like h/ch (soft as in Scottish/Irish) which can be treated as a silenced guttural R. The ϱ however makes me struggle, it doesn't remind me of original rho (ρ) from the first sight.
What's your end goal anyway? Do you want to compile a hundred of latin-based alphabets into one hundred and first?
BerndBernd2023-08-09 23:51:13 · 3yNo. 282416reply
its beautiful and im so proud of you granny
SloveniaBernd2023-08-10 09:15:37 · 3yNo. 282437reply
>it doesn't remind me of original rho (ρ) from the first sight.
It's how it was commonly handwritten historically. Mathematicians prefer ϱ because it's harder to confuse with p.
Cannot attach image for some reason. Please refer to: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Das_Buch_der_Schrift_%28Faulmann%29_186.jpg
Point taken, nonetheless.
 
>What's your end goal anyway? Do you want to compile a hundred of latin-based alphabets into one hundred and first?
Come up with a standardized system for transcription of languages that don't use Latin, as well as for language reconstruction and conlanging purposes.
GermanyBernd2023-08-10 09:42:14 · 3yNo. 282438reply
looking forward to reading the op next time i take the time to smoke sum weed 🥳
AustraliaBernd2023-08-10 11:48:29 · 3yNo. 282444reply
What is the point of doing this exactly? What are you getting from it?
NetherlandsBernd2023-08-10 12:54:16 · 3yNo. 282448reply
> Come up with a standardized system for transcription of languages that don't use Latin
Why use Latin then? You could build something from a scratch instead, it would be more versatile and less confusing. It could also be less syllable-oriented, based on smaller and more distinctive sound features (like Korean script) - it's harder (slower) to write this way but easier to learn and read.
SloveniaBernd2023-08-10 13:41:37 · 3yNo. 282455reply
It needs to work inline with normal text, when writing in English or Slovene or otherwise, where only some words (e.g. proper names, culturally specific objects and concepts) need to be transcribed, but the rest is in normal language.
 
Autistic satisfaction.
 
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I'm not really expecting this to replace any orthography. Being able to write German, French, Arabic, etc. is just a proof of concept.
GermanyBernd2023-08-10 14:20:16 · 3yNo. 282463reply
3rd one is quite easy to read, I like it.
SloveniaBernd2023-08-14 21:19:16 · 3yNo. 283204reply
There's another sound which I'm not 100% sure about what letter to go with.
 
I should note that I don't want to limit myself only to letter shapes which already exist and are encoded in Unicode, but I'm also using in all cases characters from already existing scripts as a base for addition to Latin. For example, the capital of ɽ / ϱ that I want to use doesn't exist in unicode (the canonical capital of ɽ is Ɽ, and of ϱ is just plain capital rho which is identical to P), so I'm using the Percival Lowell's monogram for Pluto, which already is encoded as ♇. Georgian asomtavruli Ⴒ (corresponding to nuskhuri ⴒ and mkhedruli ტ, with unrelated phonetic value /t'/) would also be acceptable as a placeholder... А proper uppercase should be designed by inverting the Cyrillic Б or the experimental early Zhuang tone letters Ƃ and Ƌ; or by overlaying P and L.
However, almost every letter I'm using already has an existing equivalent in an existing script. Sometimes it's quite hard to find a suitable parent script for characters representing rare sounds. The voiceless lateral spirant (I'm avoiding the modern IPA distinction between a fricative and an approximant here, because the two are often allophones & there's no clear distinction between the two), in IPA /ɬ~l̥/, therefore uses a letter from one of the few scripts that natively transcribe this sound: Ge'ez ሠ, which just so happens to be directly cognate to Cyrillic Ш (by the way of Hebrew ש), therefore I use Шɯ (with a more Latin style lowercase) for this sound. Even for the abstract positionless nasal semivowel I go to hiragana for inspiration and adapt ん for use in Latin (lowercase should look like ƕ though without the ascender) – though note also similarity in shape to the tilde ~ – while the most suitable uppercase equivalent is in my opinion an inverted N, so I use Cyrillic И as a placeholder when I have to type in Unicode. (I was however also considering something like Һ. Thoughts?)
 
Now, there are two sounds for which there is no suitable equivalent in any existing script.
The first one is the lateral vibrant ("lateral R" – think of Japanese pronunciation; sometimes it contrasts with R or L or both and thus needs own letter) – there are no suitable kana which could easily be modified into a Latin letter. Eventually I decided to go with a l-r monogram, which happens to be already encoded in Unicode as 𝼑. For uppercase, options are something like a Ⱶ (a Claudian letter), or again like Һ; possibly with a R-like slanted right leg. (Some shapes of how hiragana り can be written do look a bit similar, though.)
A much bigger problem is the labial vibrant. Perhaps I should note that I distinguish trills and taps by length, not as essentially different. This is a primary phoneme, but it is exotic enough that it is only natively present as a phoneme in various West African, Melanesian, upland Southeast Asian, and Amazonian languages. The only real option I'm aware of is the song by Knorkator where they joke about inventing a letter for this sound (and proceeding to replace /br/ in German words with it): YouTube: kh9oVpAmBAc and it looks a bit similar to Ω but closed, like an O overlaid with upside-down T. See attached image. It's weird, doesn't line up with the rest of letters, and I have no idea how to lowercase it. IPA uses ʙ for the bilabial trill (unsuitable as a smallcap) and ⱱ for the labiodental flap (which is an option, but I feel it's not distinctive enough from regular v, plus the hook is weird and works better in context of IPA than with other regular Latin letters.. Either way, medieval Cyrillic izhitsa which stands for y in Greek words is also very similar and could be a suitable placeholder: Ѵѵ). The only suitable option I can think of is to repurpose the phi Фф, which is ready-made, distinctive enough, but I have no justification to use it like that. Does anyone have better ideas?
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