Little sister Sweden :D
>finland closer to big guys
We daddy now
i look at the forces that were involved in the Korean war and wonder which NATO countries will have to go to war with Korea or China.
US might attack China in Taiwan strait and present Chinese response as the attack on USA and then by the article 5 every NATO country would have to go to war with China. China has nukes but more importantly China has 1.4 billion population. Since Americans don't want to sacrifice the valuable American lives, they are going to throw NATO puppets on the frontline of war with China or Korea.
This is going to be the most amusing war ever, Chinese are going to be so buffled when Macedonian and Finnish ships drop unpreppared troops of these countries into Chinese country-side where they are going to be slaughtered like animals and their weapons and uniform taken into museums.
>US might attack China in Taiwan strait and present Chinese response as the attack on USA and then by the article 5 every NATO country would have to go to war with China.
No, because Article 5 doesn't trigger when you attack.
Unless you mean, "China might attack USA and pretend it doesn't count because Taiwan is part of China and thus not an act of aggression but of law enforcement"
i know you understand that Americans are going to just spin it. You know of Bay of Tonkin incident false flag and how it was used to drag USA into the war. Same things can happen here - American coast guard might just attack a ship of PLA under some pretext of guarding the freedom of navigation, then when China hits back, they are going to rewrite history by pumping articles focusing on the Chinese response and bury the fact that Americans fired first under the TONNNNNS of articles of |China attacked us, we need to respond!"
Americans lied about starting war in Vietnam, American lied about starting war in Iraq. But you are certain they won't lie to you about starting war with China. Naive extremely.
>>187428 there protests in sweden about joining nato, Most of the Swedish people want peace not joining nato and sweden is always neutral so don't even deny it.
Dont forget it's nej till nato
If protesters can't break into the parlament building and drag treatorous politicians out or if they can't capture the communication tower ---- then protests can just be ignored by media even if 1000000 people show up on the street and no one will know about them. As if they never happened. And if media covers them, they can just say that protesters were for NATO or against vax and arrest 5% of the most active ones saying that they colluded with Russia. See how they cover January 6th protesters in USA, like it was the end of the republic. They even killed a protester in the building of Capitol, but this recieved no coverage of sympathy. A protester killed? Now imagine if this was the protester in Hong Kong who would have been killed during Hong Kong legislative building storm
American streets would be named after that protestor, but in USA if protester killed in legislative building - they deserve it.
>You know of Bay of Tonkin incident false flag
Once again, I will not even bother with the content of your arguments, because you clearly lack the ability to reflect, given that you bring up an example of an incident everyone, especially Americans, know was a false flag, as an example of how America lies and deceives.
If America lied and deceived, they would still be kokokoing about how Bay of Tonkin incident was a terrorist attack on American ships or something.
again, you imply that if some event recieved coverage and got known to be evil and disgusting - this somehow redeems the whole event and prevents it from occuring. WITHOUT PUNISHMENT OF THOSE INVOLVED.
So if Americans made a false flag and then media published in the news about it - by some magic this is going to be prevented from happening ever again. WITHOUT PUNISHMENT OF THOSE INVOLVED.
or if a wedding got bombed, or if they just butcher an innocent family from a drone - somehow covering it in the news supposed to redeem the crime. WITHOUT PUNISHMENT OF THOSE INVOLVED.
Are you fucking retarded, man? If no one gets punished, the whole media coverage of the event doesn't change shit. Its like if a person X murders your fucking family and then i ask his brother journalist to publish a detailed interview and investigation of X's crime, covering every strike that X inflicted on your kids and parents. And if after publishing this interview and investigation, MiSTER X JUST GOES FREE AS IF NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT ANY CHARGES AGAINST HIM. Do you think that justice got served in this situation and do you think that just the fact of the news coverage will prevent X from commiting more crimes?
Yes. They dragged Australia into it, which had its troops presence increased there, it was one of the justifications of escalation. New Zealand also started to beef up their presence there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Australia_during_the_Vietnam_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_in_the_Vietnam_War
>Evidently, it did.
No, it wouldn't. Because the brother of mister X will probably even recieve praise and an award an then share that money with mister X. Imagine - mister X kills your family, and then his brother gets award for writing about it and shares profits with the murderer who goes free, getting rich on his popularity. Thats how American system works. The criminals and media are one family - no one got punished for Gulf of Tonkin fiasco, no one got demoted, no one got punished for Iraq WMD lie and millions who died as consequence, no one got punished for these crimes. Americans will self-congratulate themselves and continue on, as if this is how this is supposed to be "if crimes get published, its enought of a punishment to just talk about them, while also being a self-jerk off about how noble we are about not covering our crimes in shadows, but covering them in the news".
Imagine if this happened in Russia and if Russian media would uncover some corruption scandal and cover it in the news, even state media talking about this, but no one gets punished, or arrested or trialed, but instead Russian journalists who cover crimes just get awards and write about how free Russia is where we can talk about the crimes and corruption. But what the fucking point in this self jerking about freedom if no one gets arrested or punished? We supposed to uncover crimes and bring them from the shadows to the surface not to be heroes and pose for cameras about what a great journalists we have and what free coutnry we have where this allowed to happen. After the crime is brought up to surface there supposed to be a reaction, a punishment, a correction, demotion, trial of those who are guilty. But in the West, people just don't demand that. THey get satisfied knowing they live in the corrupt system, but the fact that they got to know about this from the media somehow makes them happy and they forget about the corrupt system immidiatelly. Like WHAT. THE. FUCK.
>Russian journalists who cover crimes just get awards and write about how free Russia is where we can talk about the crimes and corruption. But what the fucking point in this
The difference is, the US have some basic democracy. When it happens there people read these journalists and stop voting for polititians associated with these crimes. And unlike Russia elections mean something there - you don't even need the detailed investigation (which will be corrupted anyway) to find exact reasons behind it when you can just strip them out of power.
Kek, falseflagging and kvetching is standard American modus operandi from the beginning. Remember the Alamo USS "Maine"? What to expect from a nation that begun as a separatist movement against taxes and presents it to this day as a fight over Democracy™ and Freedom®.
Implying that Australia needed dragging into it; they are anglos after all. They've spent the second half of the XIX century in hysteria over a purported invasion by Russia, that apparently would include gassing their cities with "beams of death", and now, in XXI century they paid the ultimate price for their overlord, going to Afghanistan and murdering some unarmed teenage boys there in the name of Democracy™ and Freedom®. Fuck Australia, fuck these cunts. I wish I've been a monster they think I am, I wish I had enough beams of death to gas their every city as well as the entirety of the outback.
>When it happens there people read these journalists and stop voting for polititians associated with these crimes.
So that is the punishment in your opinion? No second term for George W Bush? I am sure he is very upset, you know, living the rest of his life in piece on his million dollar ranch surrounded by grandkids and expensive drinks, swimming in a pool, getting expensive massage and best medical treatment, secret service protection for life. But American system gravely punished him - "no second term for you George!"
He must be really broken, i wonder how he will feel about it when he will celebrate his 100 year birthday and his grandgrandgrandkid Bush JuniorJuniorJunior will become new president again.
In my opinion, punishment itself is not enough to prevent people from commiting crimes.
And again, you forgot about what basic democracy is. The american political system is not built around single person, nor he decides everything and responsible for everything. A lot of people lost their positions and don't influence american foreign policies anymore which is much more important than some punishment (which in such scales never works and always targets the wrong people anyway). Maybe it's too complicated for somebody coming from a country that has only authoritarian regimes for the last few centurties...
Punishment is atleast going to be a thought in the mind of the politician, when he plans something like that. But imagine some politician right now plans a false flag to start a war with China that will kill millions in China and in the West. And he knows that all the previous perpetuators of such false flag attacks in USA walked free and even got the promotions in ranks and recieved their pensions in full, none of them got disgraced or got in jail, maximum inconvinience they recived is some few bad news articles that they scoffed at while living luxuriously in their expensive Los Angeles appartments.
Without the thought of punishment, that politician can go forward with his plans for a false flag attack. Or he can just order to bomb a hospital or a wedding in third world country - just for fun. This sytem doesn't punish psychos and in a way incentivises bad decision making.
What i hope for - is the Chinese victory to end this rotter system once and for all. Maybe if 5 to 8 aircraft carriers sink, Guam bombed to dust and if 7 American submarines vanish in sea with all of their crew - maybe then American people will demand answers and punishment? Not from Chinese, but from American elites who started it? or maybe they will just get satisfied with the article in the news about Biden member of staff who done it and about how he is not going to get punished and actually going to get hired by Lockheed Martin after he retires.
>is atleast going to be a thought in the mind of the politician, when he plans something like that
I thought people understood what's wrong with that sort of idea decades ago. No, it doesn't work like this, every politian will be sure that he'll find a way to avoid punishment.
What's more important, punishment can only by carried out by the government itself. Which theoretically may work in some better developed democracies but american one is too centralised for this, the organs to punish are controlled by these polititians so they won't punish themselves of course.
> plans a false flag to start a war
What for? Even without punishment he won't gain anything from such a war, except maybe a chinese missile to his house (unlike Russia, american politicians usually have to live in the US with their families in order to be voted for). And when this gets exposed he'll also lose his position and his power and he knows it's inevitable, why would he want it?
>lose his position and his power
Like dude, why do you think its so scarry for a politician to lose his post? He fucking lives the rest of his life in luxary and safety, they get paid fucking millions and probably have so much money stolen away, but you think that after he loses his position BUT without any punishment or investigation or seizing of his money - he is supposed to feel bad about it? some politician probably can make so much money in a year, you won't make in your entire life and he can put his buddies and relatives in position of power using nepotism, so even if he loses position - he still has the money, power, influence and everything.
And you here advocating here is basically - maximum punishment that polticians should recive is critique in media and maybe losing their post. As if they are some fucking elite class, unique cast of people who get special treatment. And you here is saying that this system is perfect because it allows to sometimes read in newspapers about crimes of politicians and jerking off about what a free society you live in, while these politicians don't get punished and continue to rule over you.
>why do you think its so scarry
Cause that's the only thing he has there. He became politian to achieve it.
And I think getting a missile over his house and getting his wife and children killed is also scary.
And you still didn't answer what for would he start that war for in the first place...
>they get paid fucking millions and probably have so much money stolen away
Again, you're forgetting that unlike Russia they have some basic democracy and cannot do that in such scale.
> is saying that this system is perfect
I never said so. Moreover, I specifically emphasised several times they have only basic democracy. That system is crappy and needs reworking in so many places. But at least it's working much better (in terms of preventing mass human rights related crimes) than no democracy at all like in Russia or China. It would have been much, much worse without the freedom of speech while your "needs to be punished!" cannot be implemented at all in the current state.
>Cause that's the only thing he has there.
no, thats not the only thing he has there. And i already listed important things, you just ignore me. He still has:
- money he stole and hid in bank accounts
- connections to nepotism installed buddies
- pension
- status
- property
- vehicles
- freedom of movement
- his body is free and he can go wherever he wants, maybe even can buy a home on Bahamas and live like a king fucking new whores and bitches every day untill he fucks every woman on the island and then go to the next one
> getting a missile over his house and getting his wife and children killed is also scary.
When they did it with Vietnam and Iraq there was no threat of retaliation at home. and with China they still hope that they can controll the escalation where American missiles will be destroying targets deep in China, and China won't retaliate and reach into America. Because American missile system is close to China and Chinese missile systems are far away from continental USA. Understand? Now if China would have missile systems in Mexico, that would be deterring stupid American politicians from acting foolishly, but they still think that they can hit China with impunity and get no slap back, they even think that China can swallow a nuclear strike, which is why Americans deployed nuclear sub to Guam recently with that low-yield nuke on it. Americans think that if they start to lose, they can just nuke China, but not with the big nuke, but with a smoll nuke, claiming that nuking USA with the big nuke would be unacceptable and that China shouldn't respond nuking USA bigly in response for just a SMOLL NUKE fired by Americans.
> they have some basic democracy and cannot do that in such scale
They absolutelly can, Americans just use different words for corruption. I follow NASA a lot and they have this phenomemon - they give cost-plus contracts to their buddies big manufacturers so that the cost can always grow with no investigation what caused it. CEO probably took 2% of the contract to himself to buy a new mansion, and then reported that the price of the contract need to be increased and government HAS TO PAY. Not even asking why, the government agrees to this condition from the begining, because people who gave that contract to that corporation are buddies with people from that corporation. They call it Pork.
Or watch this shit - Americans just call police corruption with different word Civil Forfeiture.
Its just cops stealing money and they legalized it, but Americans can't just admit that its wrong, that this is corruption and that there is something wrong with the system, they don't seek punishment and change. They just invented some new funny word so that they wouldn't have to call it what it is. Its not corruption, you see, its Civil Forfeiture, we are not like those third world countries, where they have corruption, we have no corruption!
Thats how Americans operate, they have a lot of corruption, but instead of admitting it and punishing the responsible people - they invent new word for it, publish a lot about it in Media, joke about it and no one gets punished, as if the system is perfect.
>fucking new whores and bitches every day untill he fucks every woman on the island and then go to the next one
If that's what you're after there're so much more straightforward ways to achieve that than become a politician and start a war nobody asked for risking your own life...
> there was no threat of retaliation at home
Exactly. With China that's not the case. And you still haven't answered what would be the profit for a politician in starting such a war.
> Americans think that
I like how you not being an American nor a politician somehow know what do American politician think. You could use your ability to read minds for something more useful...
> they legalized it
Exactly. This way it at least can be put under control and exposed to public. You know the numbers and where are they coming from. You (and journalists as well) can trace it and find out where it lands in the end.
>And you still haven't answered what would be the profit for a politician in starting such a war.
There is this fear, that if China develops its own technological giant corporations with the knowledge of technologies that are now exclusive only to the West - then that will ruin the monopoly regime of many American corporations and threaten their trillion dollar profits. Like a corporation like Apple now already feels competition and loses profits in billions because countless Chinese companies now entered the market and make cheaper phones. But American elite politicians are more concerned about other corporations like Boeing losing in competition to China. Contracts in aviation industry are several trillions in decades, this is the budget of some European countries. Now all of this is guaranteed to Boeing because they and Airbus kinda the only game in town. But in few years Chinese companies will change it. Many American politicians see it as the direct threat to their investment in Boeing and technological monopoly of USA in general. They fear that if China becomes too technologically advanced, then the center of the world influence will be there and it will be China technologically isolating Washington, by imposing sanctions and restrictions - not the other way around as it is now.
So Americans might start a war under the calculus that if they start war with China now, that would be costly but possible to win. But if they don't start war now, then in 10 years Chinese technological development will make any victory over China impossible and the investment in American corporations who now hold the monopoly over the market will become a giant waste of money, China will technologically dominate the world while Americans will be in second or third place.
That's what my first response was about, I don't see a point in going in circles. You don't do a thing about it because people do themselves by using their voting rights, that's why this governance is called 'democracy'. It's not perfect but clearly better than when signle source of power silences everyone who disagree with its course and punishes whoever it sees fit declaring them guilty and responsible - all by itself.
> they and Airbus
You already see two of them. There was a lot of tight competetions between them over the years. Why didn't America started a war with France then? There're also some niche players like Bombardier and I don't see the US invading Canada either.
In China if you steal from the government - you get fucking shot. And there are many examples where thiefs got a bullet for their crime. In Russia we also put thiefs behind bars, not enough but we do so. In America - i already described whats happening, really no need to walk in circles. In some way my country does more in fighting against corruption than United states does, atleast we had Navalny who was investigating crimes, in USA they don't even have that, since people are accustomed to corruption as something normal because its being called a different word.
>Why didn't America started a war with France then?
Because France is part of NATO, but still ...Americans do hate France and hate competition and you saw how Americans fucked French submarine corporation with that Australian sub deal. France lost billions on this.
and still France is percieved as managable threat because they are not able to present such a big threat to American corporations like China, they can't just dump prices so hard, they dont have production capacity big enoigh to just collapse profits of Boeing. And besides, many Americans can buy Airbus stocks or get on board of its directors, there is this flow of money and influence that allows for deals between Boeing and Airbus, how to split the market and control the price. Can't do this with China.
>In China if you steal from the government - you get fucking shot. And there are many examples where thiefs got a bullet for their crime. In Russia we also put thiefs behind bars, not enough but we do so. In America - i already described whats happening, really no need to walk in circles.
Maybe there's a big difference between China and Russia where you can actually steal a lot of money from the government because the government is big and controls the economy and there's a lot of money that's supposed to go to public works that can be channeled corruptively to your company, but in America the taxes are ridiculously low and government spends comparatively little money on public works? Lmao
>atleast we had Navalny who was investigating crimes, in USA they don't even have that, since people are accustomed to corruption as something normal because its being called a different word.
Lol, lmao
In USA there's hundreds of people doing the same
but there just isn't that much government corruption to uncover because the government isn't where the big money is made there
The real big corruption in USA happens in corporate circles, not in the government
>Australia
>New Zealand
not in NATO
no Article 5 abuse to be had
they clearly joined on own accord (common geopolitical interests), and pretext was handy
>Like dude, why do you think its so scarry for a politician to lose his post? He fucking lives the rest of his life in luxary and safety, they get paid fucking millions and probably have so much money stolen away,
Again, you're projecting, based on how things work in Russia.
>You don't do a thing about it because people do themselves by using their voting rights, that's why this governance is called 'democracy'. It's not perfect but clearly better than when signle source of power silences everyone who disagree with its course and punishes whoever it sees fit declaring them guilty and responsible - all by itself.
Yeah, let's add a case in point - two wars in Afghanistan: the Soviet and the American one.
Soviet war in Afghanistan:
- 10 years;
- tens of thousands dead;
- ended in defeat;
- didn't help either country;
American war in Afghanistan:
- 20 years;
- tens of thousands dead;
- ended in defeat;
- didn't help either country;
But. In America they have the Basic Democracy, that's why the entirety of the Soviet war happened under the rule of CPSU - because it was a totalitarian single party state. While in America the war has started under the Republican rule with J. Bush as the president, continued with the Democratic government of B. Obama, went through Republican government of D. Trump and only the last Democratic government of J. Biden has finally put an end to it.There were talks about ending it since Obama's era, but it took two following changes of government to actually do it. And let's not forget the entire International Security Assistance Force, consisting of free and democratic nations, all the populations of which have voted to go kill some Afghanis out of their own volition.
That's how important the Basic Democracy is, children!
In USA who has the final word on whether something is corruption or "some funny sophisiticated word but not corruption"? The media. So if a media decides that there is no corruption, then there is no corruption. Media in USA loves this country and would go to incredible lenghts to not admit corruption and use euphemism and sophisticated words, just to present their country as free of corruption.
Case in point, NASA contract to build the space suits that was estimated cost US government over 420 millions over 14 years and those space suits were still not ready in time for Lunar landing in 2024 and would cost as 1 billion each! But thats just begining of the story
https://qz.com/2046840/a-1-billion-space-suit-is-holding-up-nasas-2024-moon-landing/
After NASA spent 420 millions dollars on the development of these suits which were not ready and over payed, NASA then SCRAPPED the whole project and outsourced new space suits production to private companies. So what exactly was the value of those 420 million dollars that NASA spent on space suits? No one knows if that money gone to actually developing suits or to pay for expensice college education for NASA executives, but it doesn't matter now no one will investigate it, no one will use anything if was actually developed using that money. Now its two private companies will recieve...3.5 billion dollars to develop and deliver space suits.
https://time.com/6183954/nasas-new-moonwalking-suits/
Like from 2008 to 2022 NASA wasted on something 420 million dollars and no one will see any results of this spending because nothing was ready or developed, no one will know if they were just stolen, but now 2 private companies will be developing space suits. And government of USA hopes that these 2 companies can make space suits ready in 2 to 4 years where NASA couldn't do anything in 14 years.
Americans don't even investigate since regular American is just the cattle, he can't go and dig deep and actually learn how the money was spent. The idea that America has investigative journalism uncovering corruption is a lie. American investigative journalism serves the state and one or two parties, and they are more intrested in this between party diggery instead of trying to discredit the system they want to present as perfect.